Tuesday, March 19, 2019

Google preparing to be the latest failure in streaming video games....

On March 19th, 2019, Google gave a GDC Keynote to announce Stadia, their game-streaming platform.

Stadia will turn out to be the industries eighth major attempt at cloud game streaming, the previous seven either having failed or been put on indefinite hold.

Stadia imagines some user that cares enough about gaming that the want something better than low-end GPUs available in inexpensive devices, but doesn't care about video compression artifacts,  the variable latency and reliability of the Internet, and on-going subscription fees. Do these users exist?

Let's look at some trends

While the Stadia presentation talks very generally about gaming, it seems like a console competitor. Mobile gaming is growing like gangbusters on cheap smartphone GPUs, and doesn't seem to need any help from the cloud. Not to mention that streaming games over a cellular connection doesn't seem viable, at least not for very long. PC Gaming is defined by mouse and keyboard control, and Stadia isn't doing that, they have a console controller.

Industry trends say mobile gaming is huge and growing, PC gaming is smaller and growing, and Console gaming has been in decline for a decade, and while 2017 was a comeback for console units shipped, the bulk of that comeback was Nintendo Switch, which is arguably a mobile gaming device.

So Stadia seems positioned to take over the lagging console market, maybe even revitalize it?

Let's talk about Latency

One of the biggest issues for cloud game streaming is Internet latency... Realistic internet round-trip latencies of 30-150ms are a nusiance for client-server games but make game streaming services somewhere between unpleasant and unviable.

Yet Google rambled on for over an hour about Stadia without ever mentioning latency. No round-trip latency goals, no measured results during their test, no strategies for improving it with amazing connectivity. The only mention of latency in the entire presentation was a short reference one user made about Project Stream having "no percieved input lag". Highly scientific and confidence inspiring. Instead Google talked on-and-on about framerates, visual quality, and resolution -- including not only 4k, but 8k!

In the real world, passionate gamers (the one who spend lots of money on gaming software and hardware) have long accepted that better visual quality beyond a point is inferior to better response latency. In the real world, gaming luminaries like John Carmack rant about how the importance of tackling latency, back in 2013 saying "about the only thing that's not going well in displays is latency"... "in our limited bandwidth budget, i'm afraid it's going to come down to doubling resolution, wheras doubling the resolution or doubling the frame-rate, at this point I'd take doubling the frame-rate." He was talking about moving to 120hz here.. and fortunately, in PC gaming, we've gotten what we actually needed, which is G-sync and Freesync, and more and more gamers are playing on 1080p displays at 144hz, with less than 6% of Steam users playing above 1080p according to the Steam Hardware Survey.

With 144hz displays and g-sync, PC gamers are approaching 15-35ms latency between their fingers moving and their eyes perceiving the changes. What kind of latency can we expect from Stadia? Some PC Gamer tests suggest we're looking at 160ms. That's 5 to 10 times worse than PC gaming latency.

As a PC gamer, after watching reviews of Geforce Now, I wouldn't consider a game streaming service unless it had an end-to-end low-latency guarantee where I don't have to pay if the latency doesn't meet an expected target, and an exception to any data-caps with my provider - where they don't count constantly streaming game data. And even then I'm unlikely to be impressed, because I'm used to gaming on 144hz G-Sync with 15-35ms latency. Oh, and I don't use controllers. I only want to play mouse-keyboard. In the end, I don't think PC gamers are the Stadia target market.

Stadia wasn't that far off the console latency though, so maybe Stadia could be an end-run on the console market... The shrinking console market. If it wasn't for latency variability. Any good looking latency test of Stadia is only a best-case result. Anything between you and Google servers could add response latency at any time, including the family member who just booted up Netflix in another room of your house.

And lets talk about Cost

Another thing Google's Stadia announcement ignored is cost.

Fans of Cloud gaming like to point out the gaming rigs, whether a $300 console, or a $2000 PC, cost a good chunk of change, but cloud gaming can let you just click and play on virtually any computing device. While this is true, there *is* a cost to letting you use that GPU in the cloud.

In 2019, we have huge headlines about Fortnite, and how Free-to-play games are becoming massive franchises.. including League of Legends, Waframe, World of Tanks, PUBG Mobile, and EA's APEX Legends. Some might say we're on the eve of a free-to-play gaming revolution, where the most popular, most played, most watched, and most monetized games are all free to play.

Which begs the question, How do Stadia GPUs fit into a free-to-play world? Will Google be subsidizing F2P gaming on Stadia GPUs and taking a backend cut of gaming revenue? Will Google make F2P developers pay Stadia fees, subsidizing their free users in a gamble to unlock their paid user revenue? Or will Google try to make users pay usage fees directly to Stadia, positioned as an alternative to the cost of buying dedicated gaming hardware? All the promise of "play now" in their Stadia launch announcement suggests they won't do the latter, but someone has to pay for these GPUs. Who is it?

Unique solutions to problems

Stadia does has a couple interesting ideas.. In particular their quick and under emphasized launch of a Stadia controller that talks directly to the cloud over wifi -- cutting out latency introduced by sending controller inputs through a local computing device (which I estimate at 10-50ms). And the legitimate and seriously cool benefit that Stadia prevents client-side cheats that plague big free-to-play titles like Fortnite.

However, they also made some serious gaffs. Like claiming that Stadia mutiplayer is going to be better than traditional lagged Internet multiplayer. When client-server games lag by 50-150ms, it creates occasional discontinuities in game events.. If Stadia is lagged by 50-150ms, it will be unplayable. So what are they going to do? Bring a Google/Stadia fiber to every house? Give me a fancy quality-of-service router to make sure other users on my home network don't impact gaming? I don't understand how they are going to magically make IP latency variability go away.

In the end, Google announced their new Stadia gaming platform in a fashion that thematically resembled Apple's big keynotes, but it was sadly missing the most important part.. The traditionally  Jobsian move of staring into the eyes of the beast and telling us how they conquered it.

We want to know how Google solved the latency and cost issues that have plagued cloud gaming thusfar.

-----

If Google was a bit more in touch with the industry, this presentation could have been... "Everyone knows we've been experimenting with game-streaming. What they don't know, is that we realize Internet streaming latency means that game-streaming is the on-ramp for our new gaming platform... Where players can buy, share, and play games on the best hardware and software they can afford, whether that hardware is located in the cloud, or under their desk."

What this presentation was... "We've built the latest and greatest game-streaming platform on the planet. Despite seven other game streaming platforms failing because of latency and cost issues, we're not going to talk about latency and cost. We're just going to stand up here and tell you we're all on the eve of the cloud gaming revolution. Because like Alice trying to make it home from Wonderland, if we say it enough times, maybe that'll make it so."

Good luck Google.

...I'm going back to playing APEX Legends, the latest free-to-play PC battle royale, on my local-computing gaming rig at 1440p 144hz G-sync on a 4ms LCD panel, with incredibly low (sub 50ms?) finger-to-eye response latency.



Tuesday, March 12, 2019

PS4 Pro is a waste of money (aka, why PC Gaming is not dead)

I recently got into playing APEX Legends on the PC, which is a fantastic game... I'm a first-person player, and I didn't like Fortnite's third-person or it's cheezy crafting system, so APEX is a really refreshing battle royale to pull me away from playing PUBG.

Several weeks after the game release, we're seeing more and more "suspiciously good players". Not all of them are cheaters, but seeing as they just banned 350k cheaters, I'm sure some of them are. A friend of mine pointed out that cheaters are much less common on console... which got me curious.

What is the gaming experience on consoles like these days? Are there fewer cheaters? What is the rendering like? I couldn't aim at the broad side of a barn with a console controller, but then I found this XIM APEX device which secretly maps your mouse and keyboard to controller inputs, so your game doesn't even know you're using mouse keyboard (which means they can't stop you either).

So I tossed some money to the wind, and picked up a PS4 Pro and a XIM APEX to find out.

I went the PS4 route, because you can play PS4 F2P online games like APEX Legends and Fortnite without a playstation plus subscription, but on XBone you have to pay Microsoft a monthly fee just to play a free to play game. I hardly ever play consoles, so that seems really dumb, but it's not strictly the cost that bothers me, it's my morale objection to being taken for a ride by the monopoly.

Back to the PS4, what did I learn from all this?

Compared to a gaming PC, a PS4 Pro is a waste of money, and PS4 Pro plus XIM APEX is an even bigger waste of money. 

If you really prefer to game on your living room couch, with a controller, 4 to 8 feet from your big-screen TV, maybe a PS4 slim is worth $300 to you, but if you want to play games that need better gaming horsepower, and you're going to play them 24" from a monitor at a desk, especially with mouse-keyboard, then have some self-respect and get a gaming PC instead.

NOTE: Some people are confused by the claim of 4k gaming on a PS4 Pro. The PS4 Pro never renders above 1080p, and sometimes it renders at even lower resolutions. It puts out 4k by using blurry upscaling techniques, which are aptly termed "faker 4k". I can plug any 1080p signal into a 4k monitor and get "faker 4k" so please just ignore this marketing garbage. Here we're only concerned with pixels actually rendered by the 3d GPU, at 1080p.

GTX 1060 Gaming PC trounces PS4 Pro

I think this simple cost comparison explains it all...

PS4 Pro + XIM APEX + 1 year of Playstation Plus = $645.
GTX 1060 Gaming PC (~30% faster and 10x better than PS4 Pro) = $750.

Of course the PS4 Pro itself only costs $400, so you can get started for cheaper. However, as you try to crawl out of the hole you've put yourself in with that lower initial cost, you will spend more and more and in the end you still won't have something that holds a candle to a gaming PC.

It's hard to find side-by-side performance comparisons of these two setups, because it's a bit of apples-to-oranges. However, here are some numbers:

PS4 Pro - 8GB shared VRAM
GTX1060PC - 8GB system RAM, 6GB VRAM




That GTX 1060 is notably faster than the PS4 Pro, both in GPU and CPU. Plus, the PS4 Pro has 8GB memory total, while the Gaming PC has 8GB of system RAM and 6GB of graphics VRAM.

What is XIM APEX?



What XIM APEX does is operate as a "man in the middle" for USB connected console controllers, pretending to be your controller in a way that the console doesn't know is happening. My limited experience with it so far is that it works pretty well, but I did have some weird issues not registering simultaneous key-presses on my USB connected keyboard. I'm not yet sure if it's an issue with XIM, the keyboard itself, or what the console will accept. I'm going to do some testing.

The Good:

The XIM APEX smartphone configuration UI, especially in advanced mode, is very powerful. It lets you map mouse/keyboard to controller actions, and you can make several different mode pages per game. These can either be operated by the in-game keybinds, or custom toggle/hold mode keys. For example, when I hold my in-game (ping) key to bring up the APEX Legends ping spin-menu, my XIM APEX config automatically switches to a different mode, which has a custom mouse-response curve, to make operating the spin menu feel "natural" on the mouse, as well as bind the mouse buttons to operate menu confirm/cancel. It's pretty amazing that this just works seamlessly, whenever I hold my ping key.

Their advanced configuration UI is much more confusing than it could be, and means they can't ship "default" configs which use all these fancy features. For example, when I have a game-button related config, such as making the mouse work differently when I hold the ping hotkey, XIM doesn't know the two are connected. One is a button mapping, the other is just a custom mode page.. If XIM knew that the custom mode page was related to the button mapping, then it could ship with that custom page already setup in the default config, and whatever I changed the button mapping to would automatically activate that mode page.  This isn't a huge deal, it just makes the out-of-the-box experience more complicated than it could be.

The bad:

The big problem is, why are we using XIM APEX to begin with? Using mouse and keyboard requires a desk, which begs to ask, why are you not just putting this money into a PC gaming setup instead?

$400 for a PS4 Pro, $125 for a XIM APEX, and unless you're only playing F2P games like Fortnite and APEX Legends, you get to pay $120 a year in idiotic console online multiplayer fees on top of that... and for what? To get super-pixelated 1080p on a device that can't run a real web browser, can't run PC games, can't alt-tab during the game, and where the translated mouse feels like a sluggish mess compared to the PC version.

The PS4 Pro GPU is said to be a bit slower than a GTX 1060, with a CPU that is underpowered compared to a PC eqivalent. Two minutes of searching turned up a $750 GTX 1060 gaming PC at best buy, and I bet with a bit more searching I could do better. This PC will have at least 30% better gaming performance, have none of the weird XIM APEX mouse-to-controller translation issues, and be massively more usable than a console.

So who is this consumer that wants XIM APEX?

A kid who's going to borrow the family console into their bedroom and try to "get more serious" with mouse keyboard? A streamer being paid to promote console titles and wants every advantage? Someone who really wants to play console exclusive titles, but refuses to pick up a controller?

Wednesday, March 28, 2018

2018 Lincoln Navigator.. the new standard in family hauling?

I normally like to own a product for a while before I write about it, but some products are so exciting I can't wait. Like cell phones, and new cars. Forgive me.

After extensive research (see SUV Sizes spreadsheet), we decided to purchase a 2018 Lincoln Navigator -- regular length, white exterior, black interior, premium front seats, 2nd row captains chairs with pass-thru, premium audio, and the Reserve trim (aka real wood).

Special thanks to Val Beigelman at Dana Ford Lincoln in Staten Island for making a cross-country sale easy so I didn't have to special order and wait two to four months.

(update: we've owned the 2018 Navigator for six months now, and it's even better than we expected. We love it.)

Why the Lincoln Navigator?

TL; DR. The 2018 Navigator offers a combination of features, interior room, snow performance, luxury, and styling that isn't available in any competitor, at any price. The only similar or smaller AWD option with comparable interior room and 3rd row is the Toyota Sienna AWD. One of the most luxury rivals is the MB GLS, which falls short on interior room and a number of other areas.
  



Stylish Family Trips to Snow. This year both our kids (4 and 6) are old enough to ski, and we bought a Lake Tahoe vacation house, so we are regularly making the trip, to the tune of 200 miles each way. However, our former family hauler was a 2WD Honda Odyssey. While I love the functionality and roominess of the minivan, we need AWD for the snow and potential chain-control conditions. We considered the Toyota Sienna AWD, and while that is a great car, my wife is tired of the noisy ride and the stigma of minivans. Subjectively, the Sienna is even uglier than the Odyssey. The Navigator, on the other hand, is quiet and downright handsome. We both like its modern, beefy, and classy styling. My wife also really likes the higher and dominant view of the road. Our Navigator will probably log 70% of it's miles on these longer trips, and the other 30% in short suburban family activities, including carrying bikes, scooters, and extra kids.



2nd Row Pass-Thru and Large 3rd row. We have two kids, and we're expecting a new puppy shortly. I love a minivan's roomy interior, and the ability for passengers to move between the second and third rows without folding or flipping any seats. We also want our dog to be able to move around and lie on the floor. The only other SUV with a usable 2nd row walk-thru and a 3rd row comfortable enough for 3-5 hours is the massive long-wheelbase Escelade ESV (or Yukon XL, Suburban), and that car is fourteen inches longer than the regular size Navigator / Expedition.

That last point warrants a little explanation. In the GM full size SUVs, the regular (smaller) version is the same 204 inches as a minivan. However, the car has a huge hood and full size spare tire, so something has to give, and that something is the 3rd row. It has no leg height and is crunched against the 2nd row. If you want a roomy third row, you have to opt for the Escelade ESV, Yukon XL, or Suburban, all of which are a whopping 224 inches long. That's too long to fit in our suburban garage.

However, the Ford platform skins this cat differently, smartly. They made the regular size Navigator (and Expedition) seven inches longer than the regular Escalade, 210 inches instead of 204. That gave them enough room to give it the exact same roomy third row as their "long" version, comparable to the Escalade ESV's 3rd row. The only differences between the regular and long versions of the Ford / Lincoln design are the amount of room *behind* the third row and the size of the fuel tank. This may seem like a subtle point, but the practicality is huge. Ford customers get the larger third row in a car 14 inches shorter than the Escalade ESV. That is more than a foot, and makes the car much easier to fit into typical garages and people's lives.

Of course, for some even 210 inches is too long. I've included my thoughts on many other smaller SUVs down below.

Full Size Spare Tire. Most SUVs these days are using compact spares. Some, like the Q7and X5 (and Odyssey and Sienna), have no spare at all and rely on run-flats. They do it because flat tires are not very common (the last one I had was 15 years ago), and because most miles are driven in urban areas where a tow-truck, repair shop, new tire, and warm bed are all within 15 miles. However, more than half the miles we will put on our family hauler will be in the 200 mile trip between San Francisco and Lake Tahoe, sometimes at night, sometimes in snowstorms. This isn't remote like Death Valley or the Gobe desert, but it does go through Donner Pass, and we know how that worked out for the Donner Party.

Chances are we will never have a flat in this car. However, *IF* we have a blowout or flat with 2 adults, 2 kids, a dog, and stuff, in a snowstorm, I'm responsible for making sure it doesn't turn into a nightmare. I don't want the whole family to wait on the side of the road for 30-90 minutes for a tow or ride. I don't want to have to shove them in the back of a tow truck to get out of there, and I don't want to deal with the complications of having to wait on a compatible run-flat replacement tire in an area where the nearest new car dealer, Target, or Wall-Mart is 40 miles away. Even with a compact spare, one is only supposed to drive 50 miles on them, and I don't want the trouble of having to replace a regular tire while we're in the middle of a weekend of ski fun. We are not the Griswolds. I'm going to pop the full size spare tire on and deal with it when I'm back in an urban area.

Reasonably Luxury Interior. I'm not delusional, there are more "luxury feeling" SUVs which can be had, and at least one for less money than the Navigator. I'm referring to the Audi Q7, which drives like a dream and has interior finishes that are unrivaled until you spend $300k on the Bentley Bentayga (which BTW is also based on the Q7 platform) . However, the Q7 also has no 2nd row walk through option, no spare tire, a tiny third row, and room for not two, not one, but ZERO full-size suitcases behind the third row. (you can fit two carry-on size suitcases back there) Add this all up, and it means the Navigator is the roomiest, quietest, smoothest ride for a vehicle with this kind of interior room.. and that's exactly what we need.

Very Quiet, Relaxed Ride. As far as ride quality, I find the Navigator (and Expedition) shut out exterior noise very well, and ride well for a car this big. On highway imperfections, the Lincoln seems to stay fairly upright, jostling more straight up and down and minimizing the bobble-head diagonal rocking that sometimes happens in these massive cars. However, in around town driving, there is no hiding the fact that, like the Escalade, this car is big and heavy. The Navigator comes in at 6000 lbs (Escalade 5800 lbs), so this car is not for spirited driving. If you want more zippy cornering, look at a smaller SUV with a lower stance, a minivan, or a Volkswagon GTI.

Modern Smartphone Integration. For us, Android Auto and Apple Carplay are game changers. Built in navigation in most cars completely sucks compared to smartphones. Even if that isn't true for your car today, every year smartphones advance, while the nav installed in your car stays the same. The best experience we've had with this new smartphone integration is with touch-screen use in Ford and GM cars. Google voice recognition is so amazing, that Android Auto voice control of maps and text messaging is not only functional, it's fantastic. This is especially nice when driving solo. (CarPlay is also awesome, but Siri is not)

As far as I know, the only other 3rd row SUVs with touch-screen Android Auto and Apple CarPlay are the Honda Pilot and Acura MDX. Other brands are using wheels, joysticks, and other control gizmos. Toyota and Lexus models don't have it at all in 2018, because Toyota thought they were being smart by "defending their valuable dashboard real-estate" from smartphone companies. They have since caved and will put them in, but they are now several years behind.

Other Features. ■ We really like panoramic sunroofs. The Navigator has one, but it's certainly not alone in the segment. ■ I'm tall, so leg extenders really make seats more comfortable, and the premium front seats have them. ■ We like the new 'tip and slide' 2nd row seat design, making it quicker and easier for a big person to get into the 3rd row. ■ We like the classy monochromatic UI styling on the Sync-3 infotainment better than the gaudy colored Ford version of the same software. ■ For long trips, we like the fact that both the 2nd and 3rd row seats both recline. ■ It may seem small, but we really like that below the center console is a large open storage area for purses and bags, not just a closed box. ■ We really like the 360 degree top-down parking camera system, which makes parking such a large car less daunting. ■ We like that the car allows *four* key fobs to be programmed. Most other cars only allow two.


Worth mentioning, we intentionally did NOT get the rear-seat entertainment. I don't see the sense in small screens in the seats that are quickly out of date, clunky to operate, and get in the way. Our kids love their iPads, and we can buy four or five more of them for the price of the rear-seat entertainment system (more if you use Android tablets).

What is Missing? No car is perfect. There are a few things that would make the Navigator a better car. Maybe someone at Ford/Lincoln will read this and take note.

(a) I wish the key was smaller, or they had an optional smaller design with no buttons. I know the car is big, but that doesn't mean my pockets are big, and the Navigator key-fob is ridiculously big. Plus, I probably will never use any of the buttons on the fob, because the car has proximity auto lock and unlock. Plus, the Lincoln Way app allows one to do do all the functions on the fob buttons with a smartphone.

(b) Of course the best size key would be no key. I wish they supported using a Bluetooth Smartphone as a car-key, as is done in the Tesla 3, and will be done in the upcoming Lincoln Aviator. In this day and age, there is just no reason we have to carry around car keys. You could even choose to require biometic login on the phone, making it more secure than a key. This might also work better with driver profiles, as we constantly switch around who has which key, but we always have our own cellphones. In the event the phone is dead, the Navigator already has key-code door access you could use to get inside and either start the car by code, or charge your phone. Tesla provides a credit-card sized NFC-contact-fob you keep in your wallet as a backup if your phone dies.

(c) I wish they would make interior surfaces have the luxury feel and appearance of a European car like Audi and BMW. I think the design elements and shapes in the Navigator are great. However, I don't care for the shiny surfaces, and I'd opt for different color combos. I'd especially like to replace the shiny and supposedly easily scratched black plastic around the heating controls (I'll probably apply some kind of matte black wrap if mine scratches up). I think making 60% of the shiny silver surfaces matte black, and turning the rest into matte aluminum would help. Also, use more soft touch textured black matte plastic. The Ebony leather should come with more subtle grey wood like in the Dark Slate trim, instead of the natural brown which is nicely finished but looks a bit dated for my taste. Maybe you could get this if special ordering. I think the Capuccino interior is the classiest, but my wife doesn't like brown and insists kids will ruin anything but black really fast.

Dark Slate (grey leather with grey wood)...



Ebony (black leather with natural wood)...


(d) GM SUVs have a convenience button on the driver armrest to control the rear-seat child locks, making it so convenient they are the only child locks I have ever used. The Ford child locks use the classic and inconvenient enables in the door jam.

(e) It seems like there should be a "Black Label" quality leather style which is actually black. Right now, Black Label is only available in powder blue, sand, and a red/brown. Ironic.

(f) I wish operating physical controls like volume and heat didn't show an overlay that covers the entire 11" infotainment for a few seconds. A little top-banner would have been fine.

(g) I wish all the vehicle settings available in the driver instrument config menus were also available in the 11" sync system, with some additional explanation. It's a bit confusing having to remember not only which settings category a setting is in, but also which system the setting is configured on. Tesla did a really good job here, by making their settings pages much more visual, and packing more settings onto fewer pages.

(h) I wish homelink garage buttons were operated through sync3, with a list of "named buttons" and not limited to 3. Tesla also did a really good job here.
   
For some excellent video presentations of the car, check out:
See also, 2017 Top 11 Three Row SUVs with the Most Cargo Room, but keep in mind this was in 2017, and they didn't actually include the regular size Ford or GM large SUVs, only the long versions.

Notes About Other Cars



2018 Ford Expedition. Before I was able to see a Navigator, I was pretty close to buying an Expedition. In fact, the Expedition PLATINUM has the same features as the base level Navigator for $4000 less, and most of what I've written above applies to the Expedition as well. The things that sold us on the Navigator are the better exterior styling, better premium front seats with extending thigh support and massaging, storage under the center console, and a more classy UI theme on the SYNC infotainment. If you don't need premium features and you want to save a boatload of money, there are even Expedition XLT models without the SYNC 3 infotainment and navigation, which is not as big a loss as you might think, because unless you're in a Tesla or the new XC90, you are going to use your smartphone for navigation anyway. Buy a Kenu Airframe+ to hold it.


GM Lambda platform (TraverseAcadiaEnclave). Another decent choice is one of the Lambda platform cars. They have available 2nd row captains chair with a pass thru, and despite being a full eight inches shorter than the Navigator, 202 vs 210 inches, they actually have more room behind the third row (24 vs 19 cu ft). However, this isn't magic, they have a less roomy 3rd row, and a compact spare tire. I think the GMC Acadia is the most attractive, followed by the Traverse, and the ugly-duckling Buick Enclave, though the latter offers the best luxury trim. None of them have a panoramic sunroof.



Toyota Sienna AWD. For a 3rd row AWD family hauler, this is a fantastic value. It has essentially the same interior room as the Navigator -- and it's 7 inches shorter, and 35-50% less money. The sliding side doors are both kid and parking lot friendly, and the lower center of gravity makes it ride a little more planted. The interior is not Luxury, but it's on par with the Ford Expedition interior, which is also more expensive. The main downsides are that it looks minivan ugly, uses run-flat tires with no spare, has notably more road noise, and has no Android Auto or Apple Carplay in 2018 (because Toyota was royally stupid). My wife objected to a minivan being able to handle snow, but the reality is the Sienna has 6 inches of ground clearance, which is only 2 inches less the Navigator's 8 inches. It has no panorama sunroof, but it does have a rear sunroof option in 2018.


Acura MDX. Is a pretty compelling option in a smaller footprint. It has reasonable levels of styling and luxury. It has available captains chairs, though the pass-through is quite small. It at least has a compact spare. And it has Android Auto and Apple Carplay. We find the ride a little stiff compared to the big domestics and the Europeans, but it's workable.



Lexus 450h L. Sometime mid-2018, Lexus is releasing a new 3rd row version of the excellent 450h. We love that car, because it's quiet and efficient, and the AWD version powers the rear wheels with electric motors, eliminating the compromises of a driveshaft running down the middle of the floor. In fact, it's downright perfect, except Toyota is dumb and tried to stay off the Android Auto and Apple Carplay bandwagons. They have caved now, but it'll take another few years before the tech shows up in their cars.



Audi Q7. We love love love driving this car, and we have several friends who own and love them. The ride is great. The interior is the best in the segment. The technology is great. I formerly had an Audi S4 and I love the brand. My wife loves the car. The exterior front styling is bland for my taste, but it's not bad. We could probably put up with the tiny 3rd row. However, it doesn't have available captains chairs with pass-thru, which is a deal breaker for our new dog. And it doesn't have a spare tire, which is a deal breaker for me. Sad face.



MB GLS. Before captains chairs became a must-have feature, I expected to buy this car based on the specs and reviews. However, I don't love it. My biggest issue is the front passenger side floorboard is very high and comes in at a funny angle that makes me, at 6'2", feel like I'm sitting in a leg-cramped kid seat. It doesn't help that the infotainment and dash controls look like they came out of a time-machine from the 1990s. However, the ride quality is one of the best, and with the off-road package the snow performance is matched only by Range Rover. There is no question this is a super solid luxury family hauler, as long as you're not a taller front seat passenger.


Note: If ground clearance is your thing, off-road air-suspension versions of the GLS and Range Rover can raise up to get around 12 inches of clearance. They are pretty hard to find on dealer lots, so you'll either need to be flexible on everything else, or special order.

Range Rover. (Sport, Velar, Discovery) Everyone agrees they are some of the sexiest SUVs out there (though the new Navigator has it's own burly huge stylishness). The interiors are "real luxury". They recently updated their infotainment, and it's possible they have the best snow and mud performance with or without the impressive off-road package. However, the third row only fits kids 8 and under for long trips, they don't have Android Auto or Apple Carplay, and they are by far the most expensive SUVs in the "regular" luxury market, coming in around 20% more than the Navigator. My wife wanted one, I didn't.



BMW X5. It is up there with Range Rover for curb appeal, and the interior luxury is every bit as good as Audi and RR. However, it has no spare tire, and we hate the ride on those horribly stiff run-flats. It fills every moment with vibration and makes any road blemish feel like a sizable hole. X5 lovers, that is not the tight road feel of a sports car, it's just bad tires! They also are playing the Apple-only game by offering only Carplay, not Android Auto. Android Auto voice recognition is light year ahead of everything else, and I'm an Android Guy. The third row is also so tiny I don't understand why they offer it. If you want this car, you should just go all the way and buy the X5M, which has neither a spare or run flats, and never drive it outside an urban area.

There are also a bunch of other 3rd row SUVs we didn't look too hard at, mostly because I would rather have a Sienna AWD or a Navigator... mid-size: Toyota Highlander, Ford Explorer, Honda Pilot, Hyundai Santa Fe .. and large size: Toyota SequoiaToyota Land Cruiser, Cadallac Escalade.